quote:

Originally posted by Camus:
I know there are people from my past who I was in bands with who I was good friends with at the time, but now I couldn't stand even being in the same room as, let alone having to rehearse with and be on stage with. You honestly couldn't pay me enough to do it, or if you did, I wouldn't speak to them the entire time, so it wouldn't work.

I suspect there may be similar feelings in the Mental Notes lineup.

Been there done that Camus! Start a band with mates and learn to ... Fall out. Who has the biggest ego and who needs it to be stroked the most! Making music is great with friends & it's good to be in a band - but sometimes it brings out the worst childish & most savage behaviour. Some people are just not happy with their lot!

We'll let's think about it - we still could have this bonus material THROUGH THE CLUB. Remove single case - take out packaging & ... put them into a double CD case with a bonus disc!

quote:

I certainly agree that Mental Notes should go gold but not in this manner. Clearly the best way to make a few thousand more sales would be to have Mental Notes re-issued as a 2cd set with the second disc containing more rare songs from that era (if there are any ???) or demos or a DVD of live performances from 1974/1975 (again, if there are any available). Of course I understand that there would be costs involved in doing this but at least Split Enz & their fans can legitimately claim an award.

Or the original remastered in DVD Audio giving potentially more space,depth and dynamic range.

As for the other thing .. It really was great to read that Mr Judd is making a real effort to leave the cave and make real in roads to healing past rifts with our famous flying birdman .. great stuff Mr Judd keep it up.
Me thinks that maybe there is something musically staggering waitng in Mr Judds wings.And we all know that he is capable of it.

If you don't talk to each other .. how can you learn from one another... c'mon guys you can do it.

quote:

Originally posted by Camus:
There are some problems you can't put behind you or put to one side briefly. I know there are people from my past who I was in bands with who I was good friends with at the time, but now I couldn't stand even being in the same room as, let alone having to rehearse with and be on stage with. You honestly couldn't pay me enough to do it, or if you did, I wouldn't speak to them the entire time, so it wouldn't work.

I suspect there may be similar feelings in the Mental Notes lineup.

This is very true, Camus. Breaking up with my boyfriend of 2 1/2 years was not anywhere near as difficult as what's happening in my musical relationship right now. I hate it.

Enzboy wrote:

quote:

I have to say that I partly agree & also disagree. My opinion as an Enz fan is that it would be great for the first album to get a gold award BUT I have always believed in achieving those type of awards on their own merit.

My point is, why waste $25,000 on 2000 unwanted cds while at the same time the club is trying to raise $10,000 to build a classroom in one of the poorest countries in the world when all you would end up with is 2000 cds & an award on the wall (Yes, I do realise that the $10,000 being raised is via voluntary donations from club members with myself being one of them). But like I said, the cds are unwanted until they are sold so therefor it is quite clear that the general public do not want to buy Mental Notes so the gold award would be falsely awarded because a fan club was able to manipulate the sales !!!!

I certainly agree that Mental Notes should go gold but not in this manner. Clearly the best way to make a few thousand more sales would be to have Mental Notes re-issued as a 2cd set with the second disc containing more rare songs from that era (if there are any ???) or demos or a DVD of live performances from 1974/1975 (again, if there are any available). Of course I understand that there would be costs involved in doing this but at least Split Enz & their fans can legitimately claim an award. This would also set a precedent for the other albums in the Enz catalogue. Do Split Enz & their biggest supporters need to do what others might do with their favourite artists ???
I'm pretty sure the guys from the 1975 line-up would stare at their award on the wall & ponder what they really achieved when they know that their own fan club had a lot to do with the final 2000 sales while at the same time there are 2000 cds sitting in someone's office because nobody wants them. Come on people, Split Enz are better than that, they don't need false awards, they already have the greatest musical "family tree" in Australasia !!!! What Aussie band can beat that ? Certainly no amount of awards. Look at what Savage Garden achieved & all their awards but their roots have not sprouted very far at all.

Anyway, that's enough from me. Does anyone else have any other ideas ???

This is an interesting opinion.

When I first read it, I thought, yeah, that's right. However after considering it for a couple of days, there are a couple of points I'd like to make (and in doing so I'm not trying to say that Enzboy is wrong - this is a situation where I don't feel that there is a right or wrong, its just how you feel about it) (my points are not necessarily in the same order as in Enzboy's posts:

I would also love to see Mental Notes go gold, but when you refer to it in "this manner" I think you need to consider what "this manner" is. Achieving gold status is nothing more than numbers.

I don't think that doing it this way, ie via an auction where Frenz/Fanz get to bid on items which they ordinarily would not have the opportunity to purchase is less than honourable, shall we say.

It could be said that to re-issue Mental Notes as a 2cd set with a second disc is nothing more than attempting to achieve sales status. It is, but its just in a different way to what we have before us. Again, it comes down to numbers.

I have no doubt that there have been other bands and other fan clubs which have wanted particular records to go gold, and have set out to achieve that.

Peter is not doing anything which could be considered to be dishonest, or less than genuine, in my opinion. I bet the same can't be said of some gold records in history.

The way in which Peter is trying to achieve gold status for Mental Notes is simply a variation of cd sales. Whether you auction other items or whether you repackage Mental Notes in an attempt to get 2,000 people to buy it, the end result is the same - numbers. And who's to say that Peter doesn't want or need a spare 2,000 copies of Mental Notes?

I doubt that the guys would worry about staring at the wall and pondering (Neil and Tim had better not anyway; I have other things on their plates for them ). A gold award would testify that a certain number of Mental Notes had been sold.

I think this is more about recognition of the standard of an album, and the uniqueness of the band that released it, than sales figures and numbers, and personally I think that's where pg is coming from (correct me if I'm wrong Gryph - I don't mean to speak to you). Edit: or for you

Heck, if they had only sold one copy of this CD, in my book it would still deserve to be gold because it is a fantastic album.

Split Enz do have a brilliant musical family tree, and while they certainly do not need the award to be what they are in the fans' estimation, I think that drawing public recognition to the band's achievements through a gold record is totally appropriate.

I guess that if anyone feels strongly opposed to the course of action that the Club is taking, don't bid in the auction.

Again, I'm really only playing devil's advocate here, because I thought that you brought up an extremely interesting point Enzboy, and I thank you for doing so.

I think there are plenty of examples where record companies have bought their own records to manipulate sales for chart position and gold albums etc.

Despite this, I kind of agree with Enzboy. I would rather see any kind of recognition come from a renewed interest / appreciation of this album.

A 5:1 surround sound version. Demo disk extras. Booklet. Signed copies. A reunion concert. Hows about putting the cash into this stuff? Any of these would get enough geniune sales to get it across the line without the club having to have 2000 CDs sitting around.

Hey even a plug from Neil would generate some interest from newish fans.

Some great reviews at o9ImHK3VpUJ:www.amazon.com/Mental-Notes-Split-Enz/dp/B000FG663O+mental+notes+release+date&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=au" TARGET=_blank>http://209.85.173.104/search?q=cacheo9ImHK3VpUJ:www.a...n&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=au

Hmm... Mixed feelings on this one. Agree the money should go to charity and agree the Mental Notes crew should get gold records. I really applaud Peter Green for making a huge effort. Ultimate gesture from the No 1 fan.

I think if each of us joins Peter in the push and purchased one ($14 from JB) we could really achieve the target.

The club auction could then go to charity....

Very well said Texas Rose. Indeed, Record Awards are just based on numbers. I believe that the amount of sales that an album acheives really has bugger all to say about a band's creativity in the studio.

I certainly did not mean for it to look like Peter was doing anything dishonest although it does sort of come across that way now that I look at it. Sorry Peter !!!

I'm sure Peter had the best of intentions to make a gold award happen whether it be this way or any other way.

I was trying to say that $25,000 is a lot of money to spend just so the Enz could achieve gold status for an album. The club may have other intentions for purchasing 2000 cds as they may have some ideas that we don't know about yet (I hope so).

I have to say that I also disagree with the way record awards are given to artists because awards are handed out based on sales that also include pre-orders. A perfect example is the way that the "Australian Idol" singers are given platinum or gold awards based on pre-orders being shipped to stores when in fact they struggle to sell 5,000 copies (to the general public) & their agents & Record companies go bragging about their so called platinum sales. It is also this area that affects Enz related sales which brings the question. What Enz related albums would have achieved gold or platinum status without the inclusion of pre-sales in the awardings (especially Crowded House) ???? The same question could be asked for all artists in Australia (not sure if this happens anywhere else).

So to top it all off, I'm just in a whingeing mood this week & I apologise if I have offended with my comments but I thought this was rather an interesting topic as not too many people go thinking about these things. Maybe I just think too much. Okay, I think I better get some sleep now......ZZzzzzzz

quote:

Originally posted by Texas Rose:
I doubt that the guys would worry about staring at the wall and pondering (Neil and Tim had better not anyway; I have other things on their plates for them ). A gold award would testify that a certain number of Mental Notes had been sold.

I just wanted to say, I don't think Neil will have to worry about what to do with his gold record anyway!

Enzboy wrote:

quote:

Very well said Texas Rose. Indeed, Record Awards are just based on numbers. I believe that the amount of sales that an album acheives really has bugger all to say about a band's creativity in the studio.

I certainly did not mean for it to look like Peter was doing anything dishonest although it does sort of come across that way now that I look at it. Sorry Peter !!!

I'm sure Peter had the best of intentions to make a gold award happen whether it be this way or any other way.

I was trying to say that $25,000 is a lot of money to spend just so the Enz could achieve gold status for an album. The club may have other intentions for purchasing 2000 cds as they may have some ideas that we don't know about yet (I hope so).

I have to say that I also disagree with the way record awards are given to artists because awards are handed out based on sales that also include pre-orders. A perfect example is the way that the "Australian Idol" singers are given platinum or gold awards based on pre-orders being shipped to stores when in fact they struggle to sell 5,000 copies (to the general public) & their agents & Record companies go bragging about their so called platinum sales. It is also this area that affects Enz related sales which brings the question. What Enz related albums would have achieved gold or platinum status without the inclusion of pre-sales in the awardings (especially Crowded House) ???? The same question could be asked for all artists in Australia (not sure if this happens anywhere else).

So to top it all off, I'm just in a whingeing mood this week & I apologise if I have offended with my comments but I thought this was rather an interesting topic as not too many people go thinking about these things. Maybe I just think too much. Okay, I think I better get some sleep now......ZZzzzzzz

Well I can only speak for myself, and I have to say that you most certainly did not offend me. As I've already said, you brought up an extremely interesting view of this whole thing, which prompted further discussion.

As I've also already said - you're not wrong with what you said, and neither am I. I think we're just highlighting the two different attitudes or opions of this discussion.

I said what I did in my first comment, about reading your post and agreeing with you, because I also would like to have seen the Enz achieve gold from street sales alone.

I hope I didn't imply that Peter is doing anything wrong, or imply that I thought that that was what you were implying (what? ).

I didn't understand the comments about pre-sales, unless what you're saying is that an album sale is counted when it is pre-sold (before its release), and then again after it is released and sold. Now that would be manipulative.

Personally I think that sales of Australian Idol recordings should be measured in a different way (and my apologies if that offends anyone - I can't stand "Idol"). Those acts were manufactured. And you can't tell me that there wouldn't be certain parties working behind the scenes, who don't mind that their phone bills total in the thousands, either voting themselves or roping others in to do it, in order to have specific people achieve a specific outcome. There must be massive bucks in that for either record companies or management companies or whatever (not to mention ratings etc).

And once again, are the album or CD sales of these "artists" being effected solely because of the "interest" and "hype" being generated by the television and management people? If so, then in my book, that's most certainly not genuine.

And that comes down to numbers too.

I don't think you're a whinger Enzboy. You stated an opinion, and you're totally entitled to do that, whether the masses agree with you or not.

Its opened up for me the whole issue of sales figures in Australia, and until your post, I had never really thought all that much about it before.

Texas Rose wrote :

I didn't understand the comments about pre-sales, unless what you're saying is that an album sale is counted when it is pre-sold (before its release), and then again after it is released and sold. Now that would be manipulative.
________________________________________________________

As far as I know, the amount of album sales are determined by the amount of albums that are ordered by the shops (pre-ordered sales). This does not reflect the true number of sales as they are yet to be sold to the public by the shops. So in fact the record awards are awarded based on what is shipped to the shops before they are actually sold, meaning the sales are false if 100,000 copies of an album are ordered by shops but only manage to sell 8,000 copies to the general public which in turn has given the artists a platinum award which is what is actually happening with "Australian Idol". It is clearly the hype at the time of release & the shops get on board ordering a massive amount of stock but are unable to unload it all because there is no interest from the public.

Peter Green might know more on this topic.

As for your comments Texas Rose, I certainly did not take any offense as anyone is entitled to an opinion so no offense taken or given.

Enzboy wrote:

quote:

As far as I know, the amount of album sales are determined by the amount of albums that are ordered by the shops (pre-ordered sales). This does not reflect the true number of sales as they are yet to be sold to the public by the shops. So in fact the record awards are awarded based on what is shipped to the shops before they are actually sold, meaning the sales are false if 100,000 copies of an album are ordered by shops but only manage to sell 8,000 copies to the general public which in turn has given the artists a platinum award which is what is actually happening with "Australian Idol". It is clearly the hype at the time of release & the shops get on board ordering a massive amount of stock but are unable to unload it all because there is no interest from the public.

Thanks for the explanation Enzboy. I assume that means that if the additional copies don't sell, the store either hangs onto them, or can send them back to the record company without that effecting the sales figures?

I find the hype around Idol annoying. I don't wish to take the thread off topic, but the Enz slogged in the early days, didn't have enough money, had to deal with a largely luke-warm audience, but made it anyway. I bet there are many other bands who also travelled that road.

Then you get these young things who can warble on tune, or whatever it is they do; who are photogenic on tv; they're plugged hard on TV; the hosts usually shout when they're talking to you (oh sorry, is that just Natalie Basingthwaite? ), and they're relying on votes for popularity which may or may not be genuine.

With your comment above about the pre-ordering, and then the public not going for it, I was please to read that. Thank goodness people are only sucked in to a certain degree.

I'm not saying these young stars don't deserve a chance to get ahead. Who would be without Guy having sung that thing about the Angel?

It just irks me to pieces that it is so contrived. I like to make up my own mind about an artist or band, without having it shoved at me on a weekly basis. That, in fact, will not change my mind at all.

After all this, I have to say that I do hope the auction is a success, and that Peter achieves the gold for the Enz.

If you think that the money should be going to other causes, he has another cause going at the same time.

He's multitasking.

I was listening to "Under the Wheel" the other day and Phil sounds a bit angry while he's singing.

quote:

Originally posted by Daniel Hopmans:
I was listening to "Under the Wheel" the other day and Phil sounds a bit angry while he's singing.

Yeah - Angry for not getting a Gold record for Mental Notes in 1975

IT'S NOT FAAAAAAAIR!

quote:

Then you get these young things who can warble on tune, or whatever it is they do; who are photogenic on tv; they're plugged hard on TV; the hosts usually shout when they're talking to you (oh sorry, is that just Natalie Basingthwaite? ), and they're relying on votes for popularity which may or may not be genuine.

At least Split Enz wrote and arranged their songs and performed them themsleves, they didn't just sing someone else's song in front of a generic backing band.

Enzboy

there are different levels of 'merit'.... it's like saying if a record company spends $50,000 on a TV advert and stores get in stock and people buy the cd because it's reduced/pushed on tv etc that is ok.....bands accept the Platinum award DESPITE several months later the bulk of the stock is returned. And in reality it really wasn't Platinum. At least with the 2000 sales I know it will be and it may take us a year, but they will end up in REAL HOMES.

It's 2000 units, and to be honest this will be the only chance for (some of) those original members to receive a Gold record. I think Nathan once said to me 'a sale is a sale is a sale is sail *grin* ?' (:

There has never been a time in 28 years when the club has had excess stock sit for eons.... with Mental Notes we will give club members a chance to get a copy (I'm hoping) with a full set of signatures. Remember we now have the highest amount of club members since it started and this will give a lot of new-comers the chance (and yes we will encourage this) to check out Mental Notes. Sometimes you do have to encourage people, and with a vast a catalogue it mightn't normally be their first choice, but at least we can offer it. No one is ever forced to buy music from the club, but sometimes we do make it tempting and if it is supportive of a project- so be it ... that's really not a bad thing.

If we asked the overseas % of the new members to buy it in their country they probably couldn't, so not only do they get the chance to , but hopefully a fully signed cover. Such a small number of Mushrooms Mental Notes cds ended up overseas. They could try online stores like Sanity, but for close to a year they didn't have it (and have only recently added it again)...JB don't have it online etc It can be a hard one to find. So at times on line it can be very difficult to find and as time goes on- harder if stock becomes unavailable.

If we allow Mental Notes to drift along this is what will happen. When the record company look at the slow selling albums and decide not to repress they will simply NOT press anymore Mental Notes stock (I can give you numerous examples of this).
I can give you examples of other bands, like our Skyhook boys- 'Guilty until proven insane' sold 5 times Mental Notes and hit Platinum but it is deleted when it's sales slowed (same record company). I think the only thing that got the Enz catalogue in for another pressing was the Enz Tour. Who knows what Enz albums would/wouldn't exist if they didn't play those shows.

It's only a false award if the stock sits in some warehouse (or our office), which it won't. Well hopefully not for long.
Interesting you picked Savage Garden- are their awards considered 'false' because they issued at least 4 limited editions of the SAME album, some with slip case, some with bonus disc, some with multi mix bonus disc, and autographed copies on shop counters. If a fan later on buys a 2nd copy of Savage Garden because it is autographed and they want it for their collection-does that make it a false sale? How does this differ from a club member buying a second copy from the club because it is autographed? A bonus disc doesn't make it any more 'real' ..... it's just a different type of marketing. You are adding something to get an extra sale be it autographed, a disc of multi mixes or whatever . If that wasn't so, the bonus disc would be a stand alone item not with the album.

I totally disagree I think (and in most cases am aware) that the original guys would be stoked to have a Gold award- purely from the fact that for years they slogged it out to promote the album, play the shows etc and honestly I believe this is the last chance.

The Club Charity project is not a good example. We have 96% of the funds. It is a donation. The funds for the Mental Notes cds ARE NOT donations- we have not asked anyone to donate a cent. It will be raised by club auction, 97% of the items in the auction I have donated . Also from the sales of Mental Notes at a later date and if need be I'll cover the extra costs. The Club Charity Project won't be remotely affected by this as the two have nothing in common except that both are positive things not negative!!!

I have also donated (numerous times) to the club charity project, but I will also be one of the people buying a signed Mental Notes cd, because I like the idea of those original guys getting a gold record from sales!

I understand what you mean, but at the end of the day simply DON'T support it, that's not a problem we never really say everyone has to agree on club related ideas- but I have a feeling most Enz fans probably will and be happy for the M.N. lineup. If not I'll be the guy going door to door at Kalorama with Mental Notes stock and you can say 'I told you so' *grin*. (:

Gryph.

Nah Enz Boy didn't take it that I/we were being dishonest.

Mental Notes with Bonus disc 5.1 ,truly can't see this happening.... who is going to put up the bucks?????? We can all have our dreams and god I'd love that but even getting LUTON out was Eddie just going for it and getting blood/$ out of a stone. I guess nothing is impossible but the one thing that will be said is "if it's taken 33 years to even get Mental Notes this far how many copies of the 5.1 bonus disc etc will sell" (yeah I'd buy one too) I just can't see this happening.....(much as I'd love to).

Gryph

p.s.- (sorry I missed one point on another post)...

The 2000 units for Mental Notes to hit Gold would all be from SALES (I allowed a small % for the few bits of store stock that are about). I probably couldn't work it out for Spellbound as so much stock IS floating about still but Mental Notes is easy as there are not even 200 copies in stores. So yeah when we add the 2000 units they add up to REAL sales not Australian Idol sales (cough- meow) Gryph.

Mental Notes 5.1, yeah, I knew there was no hope, but in the perfect world a deluxe Mental Notes with a total remix and 5.1 mix, demos and live contemporary recordings bonus disc would be the dream. I always knew it was virtually no chance though

Any chance of some Mental Notes era bonus material getting a club release? I wondered if the bonus club only disc for Luton may have opened the door a little on Split Enz club CDs?

I guess you can never say never around 5.1 etc but for 'the moment' the chances would be slim at best.

As far as other Enz material, there are the usual copyright issues and not sure if Warner-Mushroom would cover costs etc.....Eddie really made LUTON happen ....at this stage honestly no plans. This doesn't mean other Enz stuff won't find it's way out to you guys just not at this very moment. I guess Warner would have to look at LUTON sales etc as an example. At the time of writing I honestly have no fresh sales numbers of the LUTON cd(s).

Gryph

Thanks for the speedy reply Peter, as always, appreciate your efforts.