hi. i just heard phill judds new stuff, even after 20 odd years of not being an enz, my god, he sounds like so enzy - sweet dreams?. i was just wondering "what if?", what if he didnt leave, what would have it been like? would after hours be big, or as betcha-upa-bloody-upa-dupa? would tim be commercial? would the enz have one step ahead or a message, would have i see red been so colourful or would have tim hoped he nevered??? phil sounds like the enz of old, the endz of true, maybe phil was the ends? i dont know what do you think?

Hmmmm... I think some sort of clash was inevitable but hey I'll give it a whirl (ha ha).

It strikes me that Phil was the main songwriting force of the early Enz and Tim's contributions, whilst excellent, weren't.... neccesary if you see what I mean. When Phil left pretty much the entire songwriting task was dumped on his lap and it forced him to come out of his shell more and take even more responsibility. If Phil had stayed then I think that Tim would have felt more secure and his songwriting credits would be greatly reduced, which in my mind would be a bad thing. Phil would be uncompromising with regards to the bands musical direction too which could have led to more members leaving... Neil might have joined anyway but I think he was still wanting to be a songwriter; with 3 in the band he probably wouldn't get much exposure. After Hours probably would have either dissolved or under-gone a change in members, eventually turning New Wave and releasing their own 'I Got You' propelling them to some success in Australasia but little elsewhere. Split Enz would probably have made music akin to 'The Swingers', albeit with Eddie's piano playing a large part and Tim's more regular vocal styles shining through occaisionally. I don't think either band would have scaled the commercial hights as Split Enz did... I would imagine After Hours would be more mainstream and Split Enz would be more musically adept.

Hi Nick.

I agree that Phil leaving the band forced Tim to come out of his shell. But I disagree that Tim's contributions weren't necessary. Just because Phil had a couple of songs on MN and ST that he wrote solo and not with Tim, that hardly makes him the main or more important song-writing force.

Tim and Phil added completely different but equally important ingredients to the songs of the early enz. Split Enz without either one of them would have been very different and a lot less exciting in those early days.

Much as I enjoyed Split Enz's earlier material, I have to say the 'Phil Judd' line up could sometimes get too artsy. I wouldn't recommend the first two albums to anybody new to Enz and wants to find out more.

Certainly the Enz got more mainstream when Neil Finn started songwriting seriously - and thus Tim, possibly realising Neil's more commercial approach to writing, equalled (and sometimes bettered) his younger brother's output. Having two songwriters in a friendly competition for the best songs made for some fine fine albums (and mirrored in a way one of their influences The Beatles).

So getting back to the point I was trying to make, I'm not 100% sure Split Enz would have been as successful if Phil remained with the band. He has always had a left-of-centre approach to his material which would have made for some great records but a distinct lack of interest from radio (remember Schnell Fenster?).

Still for all it's worth, I thought "Late Last Night" is a bona-fide highlight of the Enz repetoire. And the Judd-era was more than important in developing the band, especially Tim Finn's writing.

So that's my two cents!